Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
The answer my friend is blowing in the wind | moderated by Francois Bresson

Questions and spontaneity

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #1
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

Does a "spontaneous" question involve "me"? When does an answer not involve "me"?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #2
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

What happens psychologically when a question is not answered?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #3
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 16 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

When I seek answers I can't provide, where do I expect them to come from and how do I expect to know if they're accurate and true?

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #4
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:

When I seek answers I can't provide, where do I expect them to come from and how do I expect to know if they're accurate and true?


Psychologically, are there any answers that are not already emerging in the questioning mind of one looking at the operation of thought, including the presence of the "me"?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #5
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 16 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

If the meaning of one's life is self-determined and one is determined to find out if life itself has meaning, how is one to terminate without losing one's life?

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #6
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:

If the meaning of one's life is self-determined and one is determined to find out if life itself has meaning, how is one to terminate without losing one's life?


Doesn't the word "if" imply something not actually going on in this moment of observation? Isn't it self-interest that desires to find out "if" life has meaning? Does the death of self-centeredness in the mind at any given moment cause loss of biological life?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #7
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 16 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

What is one who doesn't know whether "the death of self-centeredness" is real or imagined to say to those who speak knowingly about it?

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #8
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 3 posts in this forum Offline

In relation to unanswerable questions:

K said: "Man created god in man's image and then asked god to explain the universe, and this sent man mad."

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med Dappling Light India 10 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

why is mind divided in the first place? Who created this division? Is there any utility in being divided?

There is a certain beauty associated with conditioning.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #10
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia wrote: [In relation to unanswerable questions:

K said: "Man created god in man's image and then asked god to explain the universe, and this sent man mad."]

Does this have anything whatsoever to do with a mind seeing for itself whether the "I" is influencing its behavior? Or, is the god which you reference through K just another name for "I"?

Is seeing the same as explaining?

Is it a good idea to post a quote from K without citing the reference so others can see the context?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

This post was last updated by gp garden Sun, 14 Jun 2009.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #11
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 3 posts in this forum Offline

gp garden wrote:
Or, is the god which you reference through K just another name for "I"?

Of course - what else?

You are correct about citing references. I will do so.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #12
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 1 post in this forum Offline

The answer my friend is blowing in the
wind

When I am working quietly, harmoniously, it is like the wind blows.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #13
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

A search of the K text collection on the web site Jkrisnamurti (referenced below) gave the following results for "unanswerable". Only three sites with K using the word showed up. gp

Now, is it possible for the mind to go beyond that point so that when it is inquiring into a very complex, unanswerable question - such as whether there is truth, or God, what lies beyond death, and so on - the mind is in a state of 'not-knowing'?
Talks by Krishnamurti in Europe 1956 (Verbatim Report) Stockholm, Brussels, Hamburg, Athens Fourth Talk in Brussels, 1956

You know, it is fairly easy to ask questions. Anybody can ask questions. But, to ask the right question is very difficult because the right question demands that there be intelligence behind it, that there be sensitivity. The right question is not a momentary issue, but it implies that one has gone into it tremendously. Then, if you can ask the right question, in the very asking of that right question is the right answer. Then you don't have to ask anybody. To put the right question demands an awareness of the total relationship of every problem; then the question about a particular problem - however urgent, however important - becomes unanswerable; and if it is answered, it only leads to more conflict. But, when one is aware of the problem of man - his sorrows, his despair, his utter loneliness, and the tremendous boredom, which are not covered over by ideologies, by books, by belonging to some little sect - then one will put the right question. And when one puts the right question, we can then discuss, go into it freely and easily, with great affection and care.
Talks by Krishnamurti In India 1967 (Authentic Report) Madras-Bombay-Rishi Valley-New Delhi-Varanasi First Talk in Madras, 1967

K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception.
J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

This post was last updated by gp garden Mon, 15 Jun 2009.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #14
Thumb_avatar vin lee United States 1 post in this forum Offline

Question is a demand...The demand is from an identity...When diffused into vastness, it's a wonder.

This post was last updated by vin lee Sun, 14 Jun 2009.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #15
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 16 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

When a question spontaneously arises and gives rise to inquiry, would concern about whether it's a "right question" not have a stifling effect?

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #16
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
When a question spontaneously arises and gives rise to inquiry, would concern about whether it's a "right question" not have a stifling effect?

When one looks at the entity that is concerned, what does one see?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

This post was last updated by gp garden Sun, 14 Jun 2009.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #17
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

vin lee wrote:
Question is a demand...The demand is from an identity...When diffused into vastness, it's a wonder

Demand?... Even a question used as "a sentence to elicit information" does qualify as a demand does it? Question can also mean "a doubt about the truth or validity of something. Might such doubt be a factor in breaking the continuity of conditioned behavior?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #18
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Pompilis wrote:
Is the 'me' the question's editor?

Isn't the 'me' a factor in all verbalization? Is it that the question of spontaneity applies only in that moment before the words are formulated, and especially before an answer is thought out?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #19
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 16 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

When one speaks of "the me" as if the speaker was not the spoken of, is this not self-deception?

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #20
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:
When one speaks of "the me" as if the speaker was not the spoken of, is this not self-deception?

Isn't the self, in all its guises, deceptions, limitations and distortions, the thing that must be seen each moment? So, where is the problem? Do all verbalizations, all words of expression, reflect the self?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #21
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Pompilis wrote:
Yes, gpgarden, I see that I misunderstood since my 'answer' led me to digress, somewhat, about different 'types' of question and, in so doing, I seem to have created a 'wrong question' !

In the quote from K above, he says: "...when one is aware of the problem of man - his sorrows, his despair, his utter loneliness, and the tremendous boredom, which are not covered over by ideologies, by books, by belonging to some little sect - then one will put the right question. And when one puts the right question, we can then discuss, go into it freely and easily, with great affection and care."

Is it sufficient to be aware of mankind's condition, without escaping into entertainment and ideology, and "then [will one] put the right question"? Can we go into any question born of awareness of the human condition "with great affection and care", or will self-interest always take over?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #22
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 16 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Can a question be so imcomprehensibly put as to be unanswerable?

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #23
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 16 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Is a question mark at the end of a sentence not indicative?

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #24
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Pompilis wrote:

gp garden wrote:
What happens psychologically when a question is not answered?

Is it the same part of all verbalization that includes 'me' that is impacted apon, psychologically, when a question is not answered?


Is that what is discovered when a question is not answered and simply allowed to be?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #25
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:

Can a question be so imcomprehensibly put as to be unanswerable?


Is it incomprehensibility that matters or just that perception at the moment of the question requires no answer? Though a verbal answer may be possible is it any longer meaningful or of significance? Is the challenge not so much a putting together of incomprehensible, unanswerable questions, but seeing life as a question presents itself without the interference and direction of the psyche? (In the next moment, it may be verbalized, and, perhaps, be a factor for communication.)

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

This post was last updated by gp garden Mon, 15 Jun 2009.

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #26
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

nick carter wrote:

Is a question mark at the end of a sentence not indicative?


Perhaps a question is "indicative", or a sign of something in particular, when an answer is desired. When a question lingers without an immediate reaction or answer, is it indicating something?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #27
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 3 posts in this forum Offline

A few sourced quotes about god/me - all from "The future is now".

"Man has created god by his thinking; god has not created man."(Varanasi 1985)
"Don't say 'god' and run away with that. I don't accept god; the speaker has no god. Is that all right?" ( Madras 1986)
"You can believe that you are reincarnated. That's a very comfortable idea, but it is not a fact." (Madras 1986)
"The gods whom man has invented - your gods - your thinking - will always be limited. And from this limitation we try to find the source of energy - you understand? - we try to find the origin, the beginning of creation." (Madras 1986)

And before you tell me that this has nothing to do with your chosen subject, let me remind you that the teaching is a wholeness - everthing is interlinked.

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #28
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K - "from this limitation we try to find the source of energy..." Patricia: "And before you tell me that this has nothing to do with your chosen subject, let me remind you that the teaching is a wholeness - everthing is interlinked."

Isn't seeing, together, that which is limited - without reaction - what makes 'the teaching' whole? Is K's teaching whole in this world - the world of kinfonet at the moment - while the conditioned mind governs life in that same moment?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #29
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

Katy Pompilis wrote:

How much is spontaneity influenced by the physical presence of other people and, how much does the language that one uses, 'influence' not only the questions but the answers themselves?


Is anything influenced by another, or by particular words, spontaneous? Are all answers influenced, since they are verbalizations put together by thought, even if that thought is influenced by Krishnamurti?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #30
Thumb_avatar gp garden United States 44 posts in this forum Offline

In the context of a dialogue on kinfonet: are questions something to think about; are answers to questions related to the psyche desired; are such answers just dead words?

"K: Perception seeing itself perceiving - then it is not perception." J. Krishnamurti The Way of Intelligence Chapter 6 Part 4 Seminar Madras 31st December 1982

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